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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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I was willing to believe that Gary was just old school (even though the time he is saying was in the 80s simply did not exist), but when you read the tone of the quotes, it begins to sound like he just have something against Sanderson.
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"And I would have thought he was competitive enough to want to stay and fight Iowa for that top spot, not just turn tail."
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You've now said he has no honor, no integrity and that he's a coward.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Rex Holman added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Actually I was using indentured servitude as a means of explaining that breaking a contract is sometimes justified. It was the first thing that came to mind regarding a class system. You either belong or you don't.
There is a very real class system in the US. It use to be that institutions were more important than the individual. Now it has swung the other way, where the individual is more important than the institution. I would say that both need to be aligned properly and do their respective part to get the most out of any situation. However, it seems that both take a defensive position and progress stagnates. i.e. The big Three.
IMO I do not judge Cael as not one of us has walked in his shoes and he has been a representation of what is best about the sport of wrestling. This latest circumstance just goes to show that he wants to win very very badly. It is a reflection of his nature. He is doing what he thinks he needs to do to be the best. It overcame any sense of duty and obligation that he had to Iowa State and that had to be a extremely huge amount considering his history there.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:
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"I was willing to believe that Gary was just old school (even though the time he is saying was in the 80s simply did not exist), but when you read the tone of the quotes, it begins to sound like he just have something against Sanderson.
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"And I would have thought he was competitive enough to want to stay and fight Iowa for that top spot, not just turn tail."
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You've now said he has no honor, no integrity and that he's a coward."
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Leaving a contract pretty much speaks for itself.
I am not the first who said he wanted to leave being #2 in the state of Iowa. I was just responding to that comment.
Nice try, though. :)
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"Actually I was using indentured servitude as a means of explaining that breaking a contract is sometimes justified. It was the first thing that came to mind regarding a class system. You either belong or you don't.
There is a very real class system in the US. It use to be that institutions were more important than the individual. Now it has swung the other way, where the individual is more important than the institution. I would say that both need to be aligned properly and do their respective part to get the most out of any situation. However, it seems that both take a defensive position and progress stagnates. I.e. The big Three.
IMO I do not judge Cael as not one of us has walked in his shoes and he has been a representation of what is best about the sport of wrestling. This latest circumstance just goes to show that he wants to win very very badly. It is a reflection of his nature. He is doing what he thinks he needs to do to be the best. It overcame any sense of duty and obligation that he had to Iowa State and that had to be a extremely huge amount considering his history there."
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Sadly, to me at least, it also seems like it overcame any sense of duty and obligation to the guys he recruited there as well. I guess he was telling them he cannot win with them in Ames, and needs to go somewhere else. Just my interpretation of what you are saying.
I know he can do whatever he wants, and this is NOT just about Sanderson. Could just as easily be about Saban or Calipari. It is indicative of what goes on now, and I agree that the kids get caught in the middle. That is why they and their families need to do as much as they can to protect themselves BEFORE signing, for once they do they have given their word. And even if a man's word doesn't seem to mean much to many anymore, nothing wrong with bringing integrity back if we at all can.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Rex Holman added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Gary-
I do believe that you are correct in saying that it sends a big message to his recruited wrestlers that he would be unable to beat Iowa or would get beat more often than not against the Hawkeyes.
Maybe he is just extremely intelligent and understands that there needs to be a paradigm shift in order to beat the Hawkeyes. At which point, it requires circumstances greater than his current situation allows.
To an uber-competitive individual, self always comes first.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
John Flanigan added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"Gary-
I do believe that you are correct in saying that it sends a big message to his recruited wrestlers that he would be unable to beat Iowa or would get beat more often than not against the Hawkeyes.
Maybe he is just extremely intelligent and understands that there needs to be a paradigm shift in order to beat the Hawkeyes. At which point, it requires circumstances greater than his current situation allows.
To an uber-competitive individual, self always comes first."
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Or maybe he wanted to compete against Iowa more often, since he is moving to the same conference. Instead of being the better team in Iowa, he can now be the better team in the toughest conference. It appears he is running towards the Hawkeyes, rather than away from them.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Rex Holman added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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John-
Excellent point. That would go along wth the ideology of wrestling in the toughest conference will prepare you best for NCAAs. Running towards the competition at a sprint. I love it.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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John: Intriguing point. Perhaps, he wanted to change the angle of attack?
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Scott -- excellent point about teachers leaving while still under contract. Gary skipped over that argument. From his posts, he seems to have a real axe with Sanderson.
Gary, you wrote "it also seems like it overcame any sense of duty and obligation to the guys he recruited there as well." So, by that line of thinking, the only time you can leave is after everybody you've recruited is gone. So, once you take a position, you are there till death or you're fired. Seems Rex's idea of indentured serventhood is closer to your idea of coaching obligations.
Back on topic: Taylor's and Clark's college future will be bright where ever they end up. I'd bet they both end up wrestling for PSU (with Taylor being a stronger bet -- his style has Cael written all over it).
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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In an article written by Eric Franz on JJ Huddle, Taylor was quoted as saying that he and Cael talked about 1 time per week. I'd assume then that Taylor found out that Cael was leaving directly from him.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"In an article written by Eric Franz on JJ Huddle, Taylor was quoted as saying that he and Cael talked about 1 time per week. I'd assume then that Taylor found out that Cael was leaving directly from him."
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I would hope every current wrestler and recruit did. Nothing special about that gesture.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"Scott -- excellent point about teachers leaving while still under contract. Gary skipped over that argument. From his posts, he seems to have a real axe with Sanderson.
Gary, you wrote "it also seems like it overcame any sense of duty and obligation to the guys he recruited there as well." So, by that line of thinking, the only time you can leave is after everybody you've recruited is gone. So, once you take a position, you are there till death or you're fired. Seems Rex's idea of indentured serventhood is closer to your idea of coaching obligations.
Back on topic: Taylor's and Clark's college future will be bright where ever they end up. I'd bet they both end up wrestling for PSU (with Taylor being a stronger bet -- his style has Cael written all over it)."
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What teachers leave while under contract? Elementary and Secondary? How many leave mid-school year?
You can be honest with recruits, like someone said Brands was with his kid, and explain the situation under which you might leave. Then it is buyer beware. Otherwise you have at best mislead and at worst lied to the kids your recruited. I just happen to think you have an obligation to the people you sold yourself to.
Axe to grind with Sanderson. LOLOLOLOLOL
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Almost every teacher, when they decide to take a job at another school, leave while under contract. Mid-school year? Very few.
Gary, you said that Taylor signed with Iowa State, not Cael. So, therefore, Sanderson didn't sell himself to any of the recruits, he sold the school. Can't have it both ways.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"What teachers leave while under contract? Elementary and Secondary? How many leave mid-school year?"
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Elementary, Intermediate, Middle school, High School, they all do it. If you go from one District to another, odds are you're breaking contract. It happens every year in every District.
Is it also the case that all teachers who switch jobs lack honor and integrity? Why was the question posed about leaving mid-school year? Sanderson left after the season was over.
Let's say you don't have an axe to grind regarding Sanderson. You have to admit you a problem with him on a personal level even though you don't know him on a personal level and don't know anything about the circumstances surrounding his departure from Iowa State.
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"I would hope every current wrestler and recruit did. Nothing special about that gesture."
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When he does something that goes against you personal code, you blast him for six pages of comments. When he does something you agree with you minimize it. Some people just don't like certain coaches. I'm not a big fan of Romano (formally of Kent State). Clearly you're just not a Cael Sanderson guy and he can do no right in you eyes.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Roe Fox added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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I think we are getting a little far afield with the teacher comparisons, although I appreciate the staying power you guys have.
Teachers don't usually sign contracts, per se (unless you are talking about supplemental contract for extracurriculars). They are part of a bargaining unit that negotiates their terms and conditions of employment. If they are there, then they operate unde that contract; if they leave, they operate under the new one.
If you are talking about supplemental contracts I haven't seen too many notable schools have coaches leave in the middle of a season.
Gary: I read that Brands was "honest" wiuth his wrestlers about possibly leaving for Iowa but also told them they would be released without coordinating it with the school first.
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