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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Leo Zimmer added to this discussion on April 20, 2009
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I have no issue with Gary's point that the world was a better place when people felt "their word was their bond". Nor do I take issue with the fact that he finds it unethical for a coach to leave a school before his contract is up.
I do however take offense to his assigning a random age to those with integrity and those without. Over 50 good! Under 50 baaaaaaad!
How does that work? I could name hundreds of people over the age of 50, throughout every era of history, that proved to have very little integrity. Likewise, I have seen numerous examples of young people that are the very model of integrity.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Rex Holman added to this discussion on April 20, 2009
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Acceptable behavior changes with the times and is dependent upon the social mores of that respective time. People's actions are largely influenced by the culture in which they live.
Human nature does not change. People act according to their nature and their beliefs. Good and bad is a value judgment which is aligned with mores and cultures.
Whatever your viewpoint, we need to be thankful that we live in a country that gives you the freedom to pursue happiness independent of state law and religious doctrine.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on April 20, 2009
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"Acceptable behavior changes with the times and is dependent upon the social mores of that respective time. People's actions are largely influenced by the culture in which they live.
Human nature does not change. People act according to their nature and their beliefs. Good and bad is a value judgment which is aligned with mores and cultures.
Whatever your viewpoint, we need to be thankful that we live in a country that gives you the freedom to pursue happiness independent of state law and religious doctrine."
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At what point am I breaking the law or just being a trailblazer for future generations!?!?! ;-)
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Rex Holman added to this discussion on April 20, 2009
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Depends upon the nature of the trail and whether it coincides with the collective unconscious or is in opposition to it.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Roe Fox added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"Acceptable behavior changes with the times and is dependent upon the social mores of that respective time. People's actions are largely influenced by the culture in which they live.
Human nature does not change. People act according to their nature and their beliefs. Good and bad is a value judgment which is aligned with mores and cultures.
Whatever your viewpoint, we need to be thankful that we live in a country that gives you the freedom to pursue happiness independent of state law and religious doctrine."
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Legally acceptable behavior may change with the times; morally acceptable behavior never changes.
I think that is Gary's point. If so, I agree.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Scott Shaw added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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I am going to have to go with Mr. Rodriguez on this one.
Some people, not just on here but other forums as well, are questioning Cael Sanderson's character because he chose to leave a job and take a new one that was a better opportunity. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am in education and a lot of teachers leave one district for another for numerous reasons. The character of these people are never questioned even though they are UNDER CONTRACT. Why Gary, are you not questioning their character? Why, just because a man leaves his JOB (and it is just a job that he is free to leave at anytime, just like you can leave yours) do you question his character and integrity? NO coach signs a contract these days that doesn't allow him to leave if he is unhappy. Why would they, the school can fire them at will, so why would they sign a contract that wouldn't allow them to leave.
There are ways to handle leaving a job and Cael Sanderson seems, according to the Iowa State AD of all people, that he handled things the right way. He was up front with Iowa State powers that be and they discussed it several times with him in the week leading up to the announcement.
Back on topic, David Taylor and the other Iowa State recruits have some decisions to make, but they are their decisions to make. Calling into question the character of an entire generation is not the best way to reduce the stress of those decisions.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Can't resist opening my mouth here...
I don't understand the notion that the "old days" were somehow better because a man's handshake was his word and he kept it. Indeed, it was never true. It also disconnects the past from the present--as if we all suddenly woke up one day and decided to behave more poorly than past generations. Everything that happens is a reaction to preceeding events. If our behavior today has become unseemly (not that I entirely agree with this premise), it is precisely because of what has already taken place.
Cael Sanderson's decision to leave one job for another is as American as it gets. Aren't we all about opportunity? Isn't that the essential nature of the American Dream? I happen to think that this decision will not work out as well as Cael hopes. He already had everything he wanted at one program--he's not going to gain more at another. But his past successes placed him in a position to make this move. In other words, he earned the right to make this change.
Did he place his current wrestlers and recruits in a tough spot? Yes. Life, however, does this from time to time. Jobs disappear, loved ones die, various crises ensue--and we have our limited time on earth to deal with these things as they occur. Unlike my imprisoned ex-brother-in-law, Cael didn't destroy lives through a cowardly act. He merely placed some people in an uncomfortable situation for which there are simple remedies. ISU will hire a good coach and the problem will be reasonably resolved. A few wrestlers will leave; most will stay and continue to receive fine instruction. No one's educational opportunities or wrestling aspirations have been suddenly wiped out.
I don't see where Cael behaved immorally and I don't buy any statement that implies that he did.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Quote from Mark Niemann's post:
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"
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"Acceptable behavior changes with the times and is dependent upon the social mores of that respective time. People's actions are largely influenced by the culture in which they live.
Human nature does not change. People act according to their nature and their beliefs. Good and bad is a value judgment which is aligned with mores and cultures.
Whatever your viewpoint, we need to be thankful that we live in a country that gives you the freedom to pursue happiness independent of state law and religious doctrine."
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At what point am I breaking the law or just being a trailblazer for future generations!?!?! ;-)"
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Sounds like it depends on how much you want to rationalize selfish, self-serving behavior. :(
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Rex Holman added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Roe-
I see your point.
At question is whether it is immoral to break a contract. Is this good or bad? Maybe.
Is it a socially acceptable practice today moreso than thirty years ago? Yes or no? Yes
Socially acceptable does not equate into morally responsible.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Can't resist opening my mouth here...
I don't understand the notion that the "old days" were somehow better because a man's handshake was his word and he kept it. Indeed, it was never true. It also disconnects the past from the present--as if we all suddenly woke up one day and decided to behave more poorly than past generations. Everything that happens is a reaction to preceeding events. If our behavior today has become unseemly (not that I entirely agree with this premise), it is precisely because of what has already taken place.
Cael Sanderson's decision to leave one job for another is as American as it gets. Aren't we all about opportunity? Isn't that the essential nature of the American Dream? I happen to think that this decision will not work out as well as Cael hopes. He already had everything he wanted at one program--he's not going to gain more at another. But his past successes placed him in a position to make this move. In other words, he earned the right to make this change.
Did he place his current wrestlers and recruits in a tough spot? Yes. Life, however, does this from time to time. Jobs disappear, loved ones die, various crises ensue--and we have our limited time on earth to deal with these things as they occur. Unlike my imprisoned ex-brother-in-law, Cael didn't destroy lives through a cowardly act. He merely placed some people in an uncomfortable situation for which there are simple remedies. ISU will hire a good coach and the problem will be reasonably resolved. A few wrestlers will leave; most will stay and continue to receive fine instruction. No one's educational opportunities or wrestling aspirations have been suddenly wiped out.
I don't see where Cael behaved immorally and I don't buy any statement that implies that he did."
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If he broke a contract, and again I have no idea of this, that is okay with you?
I just don't buy that he had to go to the middle of the hotbed of HS wrestling to recruit and coach successfully. Duke seems to do just fine in basketball, as does Carolina, and there area is not a HS baskeball hotbed. Ohio State does just fine in football, and while there is talent in Ohio and PA it does not match Florida and Texas.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Quote from Roe Fox's post:
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"
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"Acceptable behavior changes with the times and is dependent upon the social mores of that respective time. People's actions are largely influenced by the culture in which they live.
Human nature does not change. People act according to their nature and their beliefs. Good and bad is a value judgment which is aligned with mores and cultures.
Whatever your viewpoint, we need to be thankful that we live in a country that gives you the freedom to pursue happiness independent of state law and religious doctrine."
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Legally acceptable behavior may change with the times; morally acceptable behavior never changes.
I think that is Gary's point. If so, I agree."
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That is exactly it. :)
To expand it a bit further, socially acceptable behavior might change but that does not affect morally acceptable either.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Gary--I agree completely that Cael didn't need to leave. My personal guess is that he didn't like playing second fiddle to Iowa. In such a small state, who wants to run the second most successful college program. Indeed, he was recruiting brilliantly at ISU.
As to breaking a contract--he couldn't without the consent of ISU. If he asked out and they granted it, I don't see the problem. If he already had an out clause, then your arguments are irrelevant in this instance. Either way, he had permission to go.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Gary--I agree completely that Cael didn't need to leave. My personal guess is that he didn't like playing second fiddle to Iowa. In such a small state, who wants to run the second most successful college program. Indeed, he was recruiting brilliantly at ISU.
As to breaking a contract--he couldn't without the consent of ISU. If he asked out and they granted it, I don't see the problem. If he already had an out clause, then your arguments are irrelevant in this instance. Either way, he had permission to go."
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I understand they granted it, but what choice did they really have? Fire him and eat his contract? Continue with a coach who didn't want to be there? He put them in a bad situation just for his own purposes.
And I would have thought he was competitive enough to want to stay and fight Iowa for that top spot, not just turn tail.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Rex Holman added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Indentured servitude is not a fair practice, it would not be wrong to break a contract under this circumstance. I don't think that anyone would argue that it is.
Is it morally right that the NCAA should reap the benefit of athletes that compete for their respective college? Is it right what they did to Jeremy Bloom of Colorado.
Rationalization is a process rational thought, reason and objectivity. Sign me up.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 21, 2009
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"Indentured servitude is not a fair practice, it would not be wrong to break a contract under this circumstance. I don't think that anyone would argue that it is.
Is it morally right that the NCAA should reap the benefit of athletes that compete for their respective college? Is it right what they did to Jeremy Bloom of Colorado.
Rationalization is a process rational thought, reason and objectivity. Sign me up."
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Signing an employment agreement of your own free will is a looooooong way from indentured servitude. My guess is he freely chose to sign his contract with ISU, not indentured at all.
And no, much of what the NCAA does is not right. But not to use a cliche, I am not so sure that two wrongs make a right.
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