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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
John Joyce added to this discussion on April 19, 2009
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Contracts have penalties for being broken, otherwise there would be no point of having a contract. If you choose to break the contract you face the negotiated penalty or else face a legal battle. Why would that be considered dishonorable or immoral??? The word you gave was "I will do this and you will do that, in the event I don't do this, I must do another." He is honoring his word by facing whatever penalty was placed in the contract. If there was no penalty for breaking it, then that is not his problem, it is the universities problem for not placing that in the contract.
No matter how you look at it, leaving with time on the contract remaining is not breaking his word. This whole younger generation doesn't care about loyalty crap is ridiculous. The same things happened "in your day" it just wasn't blasted all over the news and internet.People as a whole are no different "now" than they were "then."
The whole choosing a university and not a coach is another absurd concept. The difference between American universities these days is so negligible, choosing a coach is just as important. I guarantee your coach will (should) have much more influence in your life in regards to development than any difference between two quality institutions of higher learning will. Having been to many different colleges in my time, I can honestly say that I would have received the same education from all of them.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Roe Fox added to this discussion on April 19, 2009
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Actually I doubt a contract was broken. I have no idea what Sanderson's contained but he would not be going if it was exclusive. Rodriguez and others often have an out to go to a perceived better school (whatever better means to that person). It doesn't mean they have no finanancial penalty, just that they are allowed to go.
This often happens in basketball for mid-major coaches who sign a long-term contract but are able to leave after a year or two to go to the ACC, SEC, Big Ten, etc. I doubt Thad Mattta or Jim Tressel just happened to be in the last year of their contracts so they could leave for TOSU. I'm sure the YSU and Butler (?) contracts contained language allowing them an out for a school such as TOSU. The contracts usually aren't "broken" because they allow you to leave before the end of the term for a particular job. Sometimes financial penalties are there, sometimes not. Rodriguez had one and that snake (I have no problem saying it) wanted to avoid paying it. I'm glad he had to pony up.
It is usually why these schools ask permission to interview the candidate. If a school wants to make a contract exclusive they could theoretically do it.
I wonder if ISU even considered Cael leaving as a possibility. It is one of the better wrestling programs in the country, they moved out an icon to get him the job and he is a revered alum. Maybe some insiders know something different but from the outside looking in it was really hard to predict. I thought it was a joke when I first read that he was interviewing.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Steve Lester added to this discussion on April 19, 2009
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Issues that came up during the VTech-Iowa circus are being replayed in discussion.
Brands was able to move and coach immediately. It was said he had a clause in his contract that addressed the Iowa head coaching job specifically. Not so for those wrestlers wishing to follow him to Iowa. They were punished, or maybe "sanctioned" is a better word. And that did go to court. Back then some sided with the wrestlers involved and others sided with V Tech. Of most consequence was that the justice system sided with V Tech.
I'm pretty confident that there is still disagreement as to whether that decision was just for the young men themselves.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Leo Zimmer added to this discussion on April 19, 2009
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Gary,
People over the age of 50 who apparently also think "integrity and honor have become irrelevant"
Nick Saban, Rick Pitino, John Calipari, Ford CEO Alan Mulally, University of Michigan President Mary Sue Coleman... I could go on, but you get the point.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on April 19, 2009
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Quote from Leo Zimmer's post:
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"Gary,
People over the age of 50 who apparently also think "integrity and honor have become irrelevant"
Nick Saban, Rick Pitino, John Calipari, Ford CEO Alan Mulally, University of Michigan President Mary Sue Coleman... I could go on, but you get the point."
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Yes. You did make your point. We live in a world FILLED with immoral (perhaps amoral) people. But it still doesn't mean it's right! (he he he... ;-) )
People murder and steal all the time...a list longer than broken contracts, I'm sure. And I'm SURE you'll concede that these aren't right or acceptable actions?????????? The only way this diagreement gets solved is if people use agreeable terms. Right and wrong, used subjectively, are moving targets. Impossible.
Oh, and good luck agreeing on an objective source for morality (ie right and wrong).
I stand by my statement... It's his life! If he's wrong...HE is wrong. If he's right...great! Either way, it's his to do with.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Stu Herman added to this discussion on April 19, 2009
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Quote from Roe Fox's post:
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"
If a school wants to make a contract exclusive they could theoretically do it.
"
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They could, but no court will grant a negative injunction keeping an employee from leaving because it has too much similarty to the badges and incidences of indentured servitude no matter what the contract says. They will however give damages in the form of cash but won't make someone work for another person just because of public policy considerations.
Gary,are you against a school being able to fire a coach as well then because while they may get their base salary they do not get much of the guarunteed compensation such as school arranged endorsements or percentages of ticket sales? If it's found to be for cause (i.e. NCAA rules violations, etc.) they don't get anything generally. That's a university breaking its word. What if a coach retires since he's still breaking his word to the kids? If you're a Browns fan were you in favor of Romeo Crennell getting fired since the Browns told him they were going to keep paying him to coach for a few years? I think you are putting too much stock in the language within a piece of paper as a basis to judge a man's morality. I'm sure you've broken a contract or two in your day whether it be cancelling a cell phone service, lease, etc, but I wouldn't think it refelcts poorly upon your morals.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 19, 2009
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Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:
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"
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"Not if I have an agreement with my current employer. Now if there is a legal out that might be a different story.
But this is about more than just money. I don't know at all, but just wonder how many of the boys recruited were told he is going to be there for their four years."
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So now that he may have a legal and ethical way out that both parties agree to, it becomes about the kids. It's starting to sound like you have an axe to grind, whether it against Sanderson, or Penn State, or the under 50 crowd, I don't know. But I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle. Assuming he had a clause like the one Stu mentioned, since when is a man trying to move up the latter and improve his work situation dishonorable?
An honest question, under what circumstances would a coach be allowed to change jobs within your "over 50 moraliry code"? Sanderson had known Taylor since he was a freshman at Iowa State, that's ten years. the Penn State job came into play in the last two weeks. What exactly could Sanderson done to satisfy your code?"
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You have no idea if he has a legal way out, and what would the ethical way be? Ethical way out is an oxymoron. And I was the first one on here to mention the kids he turned his back on, so that is certainly not a recent position.
So I must have an axe to grind just because I point out the potential problems with what he did? Couldn't just be that I consider a man's word to mean something?
His is not your typical profession. He makes promises to kids, as many/all coaches do, and at some point a man's word has to mean something. Now if he told all the recruits he might not be there for their four years then, AS I SAID MANY TIMES on here than buyer beware. But I don't know that.
What circumstances? When he is no longer under contract to any other school, and when he was honest with the kids who he brought to the current school.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 19, 2009
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Quote from Leo Zimmer's post:
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"Gary,
People over the age of 50 who apparently also think "integrity and honor have become irrelevant"
Nick Saban, Rick Pitino, John Calipari, Ford CEO Alan Mulally, University of Michigan President Mary Sue Coleman... I could go on, but you get the point."
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Yes I do, and I hope you get mine.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 19, 2009
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Quote from Mark Niemann's post:
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"
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Quote from Leo Zimmer's post:
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"Gary,
People over the age of 50 who apparently also think "integrity and honor have become irrelevant"
Nick Saban, Rick Pitino, John Calipari, Ford CEO Alan Mulally, University of Michigan President Mary Sue Coleman... I could go on, but you get the point."
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Yes. You did make your point. We live in a world FILLED with immoral (perhaps amoral) people. But it still doesn't mean it's right! (he he he... ;-) )
People murder and steal all the time...a list longer than broken contracts, I'm sure. And I'm SURE you'll concede that these aren't right or acceptable actions?????????? The only way this diagreement gets solved is if people use agreeable terms. Right and wrong, used subjectively, are moving targets. Impossible.
Oh, and good luck agreeing on an objective source for morality (ie right and wrong).
I stand by my statement... It's his life! If he's wrong...HE is wrong. If he's right...great! Either way, it's his to do with."
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So you have no problem with people who break them with you? When did breaking a contract become acceptable?
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 19, 2009
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Quote from Stu Herman's post:
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"
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Quote from Roe Fox's post:
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"
If a school wants to make a contract exclusive they could theoretically do it.
"
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They could, but no court will grant a negative injunction keeping an employee from leaving because it has too much similarty to the badges and incidences of indentured servitude no matter what the contract says. They will however give damages in the form of cash but won't make someone work for another person just because of public policy considerations.
Gary,are you against a school being able to fire a coach as well then because while they may get their base salary they do not get much of the guarunteed compensation such as school arranged endorsements or percentages of ticket sales? If it's found to be for cause (I.e. NCAA rules violations, etc.) they don't get anything generally. That's a university breaking its word. What if a coach retires since he's still breaking his word to the kids? If you're a Browns fan were you in favor of Romeo Crennell getting fired since the Browns told him they were going to keep paying him to coach for a few years? I think you are putting too much stock in the language within a piece of paper as a basis to judge a man's morality. I'm sure you've broken a contract or two in your day whether it be cancelling a cell phone service, lease, etc, but I wouldn't think it refelcts poorly upon your morals."
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If it is for cause they don't deserve anything. What did ISU do that gave him an out? How would the school be breaking its word? Generally the things that would make the firing with cause are spelled out in the agreement that both parties sign.
Retirement for legitimate, unforeseen reasons (e.g. medical, family) might be excused. But yea to retire on kids IF he told them he was going to be there for their four years without such reasons is wrong. Though, as I have said many times, it is up to the families to ask the coach if he plans on staying. We did. Twice.
Maybe I am a relic, but I cannot think of a contract I have broken. None at all. Including almost 29 years of marriage.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Stu Herman added to this discussion on April 19, 2009
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I understand your points and agree with them somewhat, I don't want you to think I'm hammering on you or anything for it. If he was going to Penn State just to get out and it was a similar situation then yeah I think he is a jerk for doing it.
But $5 million dollars???? He can set up his life, his families life and likely their families life with that type of money. I know money isn't everything but don't think Iowa State wouldn't have dropped him like a bad habit if he had a few bad years in a row. I can never fault a man for getting a better job than the one he had. He's going from I think $115k a year to $500,000 a year with a $1 million dollar signing bonus, thats hard to turn down.
If the kids don't understand that big time college athletics are a business then they are fooling themselves. Coaches rarely ever if at all are ignorant enough to promise they'll be somewhere for a student-athlete's full 4 years. There are too many "what ifs" that come into play for that.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Roe Fox added to this discussion on April 20, 2009
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Roe Fox posted:
If a school wants to make a contract exclusive they could theoretically do it.
They could, but no court will grant a negative injunction keeping an employee from leaving because it has too much similarty to the badges and incidences of indentured servitude no matter what the contract says. They will however give damages in the form of cash but won't make someone work for another person just because of public policy considerations.
Stu: if your point is that a court will not make a person work for a particular company (school) if they don't want to, I agree. A court can absolutley preclude him/her from working for another depending on the wording of the agreement. Happens every day.
If his contract prohibitted Cael from working for other schools during, or even for a limited time after, the contract it could. And you are correct, damages could also be awarded.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on April 20, 2009
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"So you have no problem with people who break them with you? When did breaking a contract become acceptable?"
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Easy, Gary. I am partially on your side when it comes to this. My only disagreement is that on the hierarchy of loyalty, I have no problem with family first.
I believe it is wrong to lying to deceive. Over and out. Don't do it. However, if someone breaks in my house and asks where my kid is, I'm telling him the furthest point from the truth. Why would i lie to deceive??? Because loyalty to my family (along with safety) is higher on the scale.
One last point...if Cael is wrong on this, and the University has beef and it is legitimate, what is that to me? I can only cover my six feet of ground and hope I don't do the same!
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on April 20, 2009
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[quote="Mark Niemann
One last point...if Cael is wrong on this, and the University has beef and it is legitimate, what is that to me? I can only cover my six feet of ground and hope I don't do the same![/quote]
Teach your kids (future kids?) that Mark. It's the most important thing all of us can do when we scrutinize any situation.
There are a lot of good points about this situation, which in turn allow us all to examine how we should proceed in similar situations. Let's don't get too rough on each other here. None of us really knows what we will do in a situation until we are starring down the gun barrel. Before my daughter had cancer, I thought "why do people torture/poisen themselves with this treatment for what amounts to a few extra good days on this planet?" (I went to medical school...I have seen this first hand over & over.) But when I had to look down that barrel with a family member, my attitude was completely different. Every day with her is a gift and to maintain that gift, I had to break a lot of committments with other people to do what was best for my family. You can argue that this situation is different from Cael's, but when you boil it down, it really is not.
Cael is a good man and a well thought out man. He is doing what is right for his family. There is no way he can be all things to all people he is in contact with in this situation. The Taylors know that, ISU knows that, and PSU knows that.
This is a good debate. We should be much more mindful of our committments (like the good old days), but the world in so many respects, is nothing like the good old days...otherwise, we would not have to have these rediculous contracts to begin with.
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Discussion Topic: College futures of David Taylor and Jamie Clark?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 20, 2009
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Quote from Stu Herman's post:
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"I understand your points and agree with them somewhat, I don't want you to think I'm hammering on you or anything for it. If he was going to Penn State just to get out and it was a similar situation then yeah I think he is a jerk for doing it.
But $5 million dollars???? He can set up his life, his families life and likely their families life with that type of money. I know money isn't everything but don't think Iowa State wouldn't have dropped him like a bad habit if he had a few bad years in a row. I can never fault a man for getting a better job than the one he had. He's going from I think $115k a year to $500,000 a year with a $1 million dollar signing bonus, thats hard to turn down.
If the kids don't understand that big time college athletics are a business then they are fooling themselves. Coaches rarely ever if at all are ignorant enough to promise they'll be somewhere for a student-athlete's full 4 years. There are too many "what ifs" that come into play for that."
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The kids are 17, they probably don't know what "big time business is." But yes, the parents should and should do what they can to protect their children. Like I said, my kids didn't know enough to ask their coaches if they are planning on staying, but I did.
I know coaches can leave for many reasons and not be there for the full 4 years, but to just up and walk out (IF there was an existing contract) is about the worst of them. And again, my next question regarding following him or any coach who does this is who is to say they won't do it again. Fool me once shame on you, .............
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