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Discussion Topic: What criteria determines a good wrestling state?
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on April 15, 2009
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What criteria is required for a state to be considered "better" than another in the realm of high school wrestling?
NHSCA All-Americans? USAW All-Americans? Rankings?
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Discussion Topic: What criteria determines a good wrestling state?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 15, 2009
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Good question. Generally speaking, I think you look at the number of wrestlers nationally ranked. There are some excellent rankers (Bob Preusse, Bucksman, Dan Fickel) and they seem to do a good job of keeping track of who does what on a national level. I also think you examine how they perform in college. Ohio consistently proves to be one of the best states in producing quality D1 wrestlers.
You can also consider per capita questions such as how many ranked wrestlers does a state produce in relation to the number of wrestlers overall. In this regard, New Jersey and Pennsylvania are both ahead of Ohio.
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Discussion Topic: What criteria determines a good wrestling state?
Jeff Sitler added to this discussion on April 15, 2009
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Having coached in NC and TX, and officiated HS in VA, DC, MD, IN I can certainly tell you when it isn't good wrestling!!! GOOD GRIEF!!
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Discussion Topic: What criteria determines a good wrestling state?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 15, 2009
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well PA has about 10 % more population than Ohio, NJ 3rd of those 3.
But yes
per capita
a valid criteria
. Under per capita
Utah
pretty darn high,
Oklahoma
much higher than their zero AAs last month, too! under per capita, i'd say Utah, Oklahoma, & Virginia all up there pretty high.
Iowa
would be high.
(i always have
my own
esoteric
criteria
, one is how many states that can travel badly want in Ironman every year???? i know firsthand that
Virginia
and yes
California
want the comp badly. Ohio too.)
based on high school kids ranked in recent years, Pa # 1 but barely, Ohio is very very close. Based on college NCAA quals PA easily # 1-- based on college AAs PA # 1 but Ohio is as good as any other state. NJ, Calif, & illinois up there too.
i'd rank em overall, not exactly but approximatley Top 11:
PA
Ohio
NJ
Iowa
Calif
illinois
Minnesota
Oklahoma
Michigan
Virginia
Utah
funny thing, AWNs Ron Good in his column did a survey about 3 or 4 years ago,
Rob Sherrill and Dan Fickel
and mine Top 10 were almost EXACTLY the same states & order.
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Discussion Topic: What criteria determines a good wrestling state?
Steve Lester added to this discussion on April 15, 2009
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Even though certain NY fans are irritating, it's tough leaving them out of the top ten.
Kansas considered?
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Discussion Topic: What criteria determines a good wrestling state?
Roe Fox added to this discussion on April 15, 2009
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I always have my own
esoteric
criteria.
That is an interesting choice of words for the point trying to be made.
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Discussion Topic: What criteria determines a good wrestling state?
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on April 15, 2009
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I don't think the per capita contention matters in determining. You either produce the best talent, or not. I had this disagreement with many on the national forums in the past. I did not win.
Bottom line, those who generally make that argument are doing so to fill an agenda.
To me, this would be similar to saying "Monroeville is better than St. Eds, because their state champ per student is much higher." When the fact is that when they wrestle, St. Eds wins.
Just my opinion.
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Discussion Topic: What criteria determines a good wrestling state?
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on April 15, 2009
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This is a bit like the dual meet strength vs. tournament team strength argument.
On the one hand state "X" just gave 4 of the 20 finalists at the NCAA's and gave us an Olympian. However, those are the 90% of what the state gave overall in AA's.
On the other hand State "O" gave us 21 AA's, 1 finalist, and has produced only 1 Olympic hopeful in the last 10 years. OBTW, this state has produced 29% or ALL AA's over the last 10 years and produced, on average, a finalist every year.
It's a difficult debate, one that would need to be taken over the years using quality stats (<--- that's a palendrome!). I don't think taking one year out of the past 10 or 20 years is the way to do it.
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Discussion Topic: What criteria determines a good wrestling state?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 16, 2009
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PA, Ohio and NJ appear to be the tops by general criteria. As for my per capita comments, it had to do with number of kids ranked vs total number of kids wrestling--not the population of the state. I wasn't clear.
I'd have Cali, NY, Illinois as my next three.
Next, there's Michigan, Iowa and Minny.
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Discussion Topic: What criteria determines a good wrestling state?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 16, 2009
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yep , ha, ha, Steve i did leave NY out, UNintentionally too. Top 12:
PA
Ohio
NJ
Iowa
Calif
illinois
New York
Minnesota
Oklahoma
Michigan
Virginia
Utah
alot of criteria can go on, and i prefer alot of criteia, evens things out. But PA def # 1, Ohio def # 2 , NJ def # 3 and Iowa, Calif, illinois & New York def the next four in whatever order, imo.
re Minn & Okla, they don't have many NCAA Div I Quals annually,
usually less than 10 each, like only 5 to 7 recently, ugh ---while Ohio, Calif and NJ and sometimes Illinois & NY are up to 25 to 30 NCAA Quals each annually. And PA is always way ahead in this category.
Michigan does look good now, but is a relative newcomer
and newcomers have to prove themselves over time. Are they just riding the "Davison wave", which is now history?
Thats why i like alot of criteria here, as former Cleveland St Joseph coach
John Story used to say,
"The cream will come to the top
."
having been seeding director for the Reno T of C in the 90's i saw alot of states firsthand, i can tell you Utah is a tiny population state but those
Utah kids wrestle tough.
Teamwise i'm not as impressed with California. And as the Mingus Arizona coach said in a state newsletter after bringing a handful of top Arizona kids to Ironman last season, "We got a rude awakening to eastern wrestling." This part of the country wrestles
tough
.
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Discussion Topic: What criteria determines a good wrestling state?
Dan Ransick added to this discussion on April 16, 2009
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I think the top 3 remain the same year in and year out.
I thought for a while that Illinois would be making a run for the best team but looks like that has faded.
I agree with Bob as Michigan was riding that Davison train. They have a super stud coming up right now in Tyler Masa but overall the talent is not that great through the state.
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Discussion Topic: What criteria determines a good wrestling state?
Josh Lowe added to this discussion on April 16, 2009
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A few criteria that I would use - order might vary.
*Fargo All-Americans (in particular CN FS and JN FS; the GR side is hit or miss, though the Junior side tends to be somewhat indicative of state strength)
*Junior/Cadet Duals (same ones key as with Fargo)
*Nationally ranked wrestlers - high school
*Collegiate AA's
*NHSCA Senior AA's (the grade levels are too participant driven to mean much)
I see a big three of PA, OH, and NJ. Behind that things vary on a year-to-year basis. In this year, I think California was fourth best.
In general, CA and IL round out my top five.
I like IA, MO, MN, MI, and NY to round out a top ten.
VA and FL would make it 12. Their demographics are going to make them better in the years to come.
I hate leaving out Oklahoma, especially after they produced one of their best senior classes in a long time this year. However, I think that was a perfect storm. TX is emerging because of demographics, which includes transplans from Oklahoma.
Dan's - in terms of Michigan, the Davison wave is over. There's a new group of kids right now that are DYNAMITE in the underclass level. You also see Michigan kids do much better in folk (Disney, Super32, NHSCA Sr, etc) than in Greco/Free. Which is why Central has gotten some kids out of "left field" that perform great in college - that and the "Borelli Factor".
In the Michigan conversation, you're talking about Taylor Massa, Jordan Thomas, Freddie Rodriguez, et al. Jackson Morse is a senior-to-be that's a bona fide star. Ben Whitford coming into 9th grade next year is a name to watch. Roy Hall's son is an "everything under the sun" type that comes to high school in the next few years.
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